Marco Travaglio replies to Fassino


Travaglio has decided to add his comments to yours in relation to Fassino’s words.
I just want to let the Centre Left know that its electors did not want this law. It was voted through anyway and they were ignored. I wondered why and I thought that maybe it depended on the judicial circumstances. Even at the cost of knowing that they were losing millions of votes and the next elections. Ubi maior (prosecutions) minor cessat (elections).

' Dear Beppe,
Unfortunately the reply by Fassino about the pardon has holes in the argument all over the place. I’m going to try and explain why by examining each point.
- ”Thus we said yes to the pardon, not so as to favour anyone, but because it was a necessary response, necessary and no longer to be put off because of the prison emergency”.
Why then, if it was proposed to empty the prisons, was there the exclusion from the pardon of many crimes for which there are many people detained while many crimes have been included and yet for these there are only a few dozen people in prison (like the crimes against the public administration, financial, company and tax crimes, culpable homicide for the “white deaths” due to accidents at work)?
- “On 31 December 2005, the number of prisoners was 59,523 in a prison system that was created to house 35,000. In 2001 there were 43,000.” So “A clemency measure was no longer to be put off when it is considered that the last one was 16 years ago.”
In truth the last pardon (known as the indultino {little pardon}) was two years ago. About 6,000 people left prison. The result was that after a few months the prison population was not only back to its initial level but it had actually increased. It’s proof of the fact that thinking of resolving the overcrowding of the prisons by sending delinquents home is pure folly.
It’s necessary to take action on the causes that “produce” prisoners: that is, above all, the high number of crimes that are committed and the high number of delinquents in circulation; and then certain laws that use prison as a punishment for behaviour that could be penalised in other ways.
- “In five years, the Centre Right – observed Fassino - have already produced a useless and damaging multiplication of the prison population. Consider the ex-Cirielli, the laws on drug dependency, the Bossi-Fini.”
Perfect! Then why didn’t they cancel the ex Cirielli and modify the Bossi- Fini rather than launch out with the pardon?
The ex Cirielli lengthens the sentence for recidivists. The Bossi-Fini imposes the arrest of clandestines who do not leave Italy after being expelled (even without committing any crime). The arrest never involves a long period of detention because the person arrested is immediately freed since the sentence laid down is minimal and does not justify cautionary custody. But these continual mass arrests, even though they have a “turn over” mechanism (5,500 a year) have an enormous incidence on the prison population.
- “The Constitution requires for a law of this type that two thirds of the members of both Houses of Parliament are in favour. This is an ample majority that can be brought about only with an understanding between a great number of political groups and with the search for a point of equilibrium.”
Here, dear Beppe is where the argument falls down. Or more accurately: the mask of the muddle falls of. Because there were various alternatives to the pardon of 3 years that was enlarged to cover the corrupt and the crafty. Alternatives that would have freed thousands of prisoners all the same but without having to have a majority of two thirds, that is without having to depend on the “blackmail” of Forza Italia (blackmail which the Centre Left very willingly accepted …). For example an ordinary law that removed the Bossi-Fini penalties (with a simple majority of 50% plus one), or to abolish the ex Cirielli, or to transfer to controlled health structures prisoners who are ill or transfer drug users guilty of small-time dealing to communities.
Or, really wanting to use the pardon with a two thirds majority, it would have been possible to “discount” one year of the sentence and not three years to all those who have been convicted. This is the proposal put forward by the former prosecutor Gerardo D’Ambrosio, an independent senator elected with the DS. This would have freed 11,500 people but it would have left Previti in house arrest for a further two years. And it would not have peacefully saved the various crafty folk of the neighbourhood from the risk of landing up in prison: Tanzi, Cragnotti, not to mention Berlusconi, Confalonieri and family (defendants for Mediaset rights).
In the latter case, if Forza Italia had objected, the Unione could have played their cards and explained to the electors that the Cavaliere {Berlusconi} kept the prisoners in prison, squashed in side by side in the nation’s prisons only to save himself, to save Previti and the great thieves of bonds and of Bancopoli.
- “Not just that, but for all the crimes to which the pardon applies, there is no throwing in the sponge. For financial crimes, for crimes of corruption and against the public administration, trials continue. There is no change to the responsibilities and the judgements. The crimes are not cancelled and above all the perpetual interdiction to hold public office stays. The additional penalties remain, even the temporary ones. As regards accidents at work and the white deaths {deaths resulting from accidents at work}, the rights of the victims to compensation remain in place.”
Since Fassino has been the Minister of Justice, he knows very well that the sentence for these crimes hardly ever exceeds 3 years in prison. Thanks to the pardon, anyone who starts off with “minus three” knows that if they are found guilty, the discounted sentence will be zero or less than zero.
To risk prison, it would be necessary to have a sentence of more than 6 years (for a sentence of less then 3 years in Italy you don’t go to prison). But this never happens. It’s true that the trials continue. But the sentences will be completely virtual. If a robber is sentenced to 10-12 years and 3 are discounted, he’ll do a few years in prison. If a white collar is sentenced to three years and 3 are discounted, he doesn’t even serve a day.Not only this: when he’s at risk of going to prison, the white collar is invited to engage in plea-bargaining to get a discount on the sentence. In this case the prosecutor can set conditions that involve compensation for the victims (that is for the State in the case of Tangentopoli, or for those who died or were injured through accidents at work, in the case of culpable homicide in the factory or on the construction site).
But when the white collar does not risk prison, he will take care not to compensate the victims during the criminal trial. He will prefer to oblige the victims to take civil proceedings that will take 10-15 years when they’ll all be dead. It has to be admitted it’s a great result!
- Fassino concludes by promising to revoke the Cirami and the Cirielli laws.
I would like to remind him that other existing laws are the Gasparri, and the Pecorella (abolition of the appeal for the prosecutor, but not for the defendant) and false accounting. I would respectfully like to point out that this is a question of promises. For the moment, the facts are called pardon-save-the-corrupt and soon the law against the prosecutors who do wire tapping and against the journalists who publish the results. Another discovery of Mastella using the words and music of Berlusconi. If it had been the Cavaliere carrying out these actions we would all have been out on the streets to protest. I hope we will manage it even though it’s the Centre left acting with Berlusconi. In fact, above all for this reason. We voted for them but they will pay us for it.’
Marco Travaglio.

Posted by Beppe Grillo at 05:26 PM in | Comments (11)
Post a comment | Sign up | Send to a friend | | GrilloNews | TrackBack (0) |
View blog opinions



Vi scrivo per richiedere un'informazione... Come e quando la legge sulle impronte ai bambini rom andra' in vigore? Lavoro per l'integrazione dei bambini nelle scuole e vorrei sapere come questa cosa si svolgera' in modo da contrastarla nel miglior modo possibile!
Grazie e cordiali saluti


Posted by: De Amicis | July 20, 2008 03:14 PM

Marco Travaglio is a sexy motherfucker :-)

Posted by: Sofia Modem | August 15, 2006 11:03 PM

Dear Eva,

We have been taught always not to curse the darkness and the light a candle instead.

As things stand, whilst it is true that many illegal immigrants have their problems, reason for which they leave their country to go elsewhere, yet entering without documents in order to cover up for other criminals coming into the country makes the matters complicated for any country, not just Italy.

Many EU countries do not wait for eternity to cross check those who DO have documents and to see their validity. What can you expect the system to do with, for example, 20 men from Senegal who go around with just one Stay Permit? The only thing that can identify them [for they actually DO look the SAME sometimes!!!] is to take their fingerprints. And here, Bossi-Fini law treats ALL extra EU immigrants [legal and illegal] as if they were criminals... BUT... what do you expect the state to do?

Any reasonable, viable suggestions? I mean, let us be honest, how many are willing to take into one's home one of these immigrants, feed, clothe, employ him/her... like when you "adopt" a child at a distance, this time try adopting an immigrant under your own roof...

I would try to take a survey to see how many would do something like this. The results could be interesting. May be we might not see them anymore bugging us at the traffic lights to clean our windshields or wishing with all their hearts that we are driving with runny noses and forgot our kleenex somewhere at home...

But, assuming the majority are all people with problems, what shall we do with the minority which is made up of criminals escaping the law or trying to set shop in another country? And since we cannot really identify them, as things stand, the good suffer BECAUSE of the bad.

Posted by: Joselle Camilleri | August 12, 2006 12:55 AM

Sorry Raffaella, it was my comment in Korean... you never know, maybe censorship of this blog in Korea does not exist, hopefully!


But it was a comment about Italian political dirtymongering, the type you have heard already, hahaha!

Posted by: Joselle Camilleri | August 12, 2006 12:43 AM

How about some riabilitation,for the one that can be riabilitated? except the one that stole from the state,the immigrants is another story,if people would have everything to provide for their family, and freedon,they would not go and live in another country,I think lots of us are in the same positions, we live the difference is that we are white,educated,and it is easyer to change country,there are lots of disavantage people out there,with nothing, I do not think they deserve to go to jail for that.ciao

Posted by: evakulnuraee | August 11, 2006 07:57 AM

Blisco & Joselle: very interesting!

Posted by: Raffaella Biferale | August 11, 2006 02:35 AM

이탈리아 정치는 졸작의 짐 이다. 으회안에 모든 괴뢰를 내버리십시요!

There there, Blisco... I had to add my outburst! hahahaha!

Posted by: Joselle Camilleri | August 11, 2006 01:02 AM

Only the same 'ole phrase comes to mind... politics are DIRTY and FILTHY. Most politicians are scumbags fatly eating off our backs while most of Italy's average workers have to work like crazy, trying to earn a few more Euros to manage to make it to the end of the month.

So much for sincerity, equity, rights at work, human rights, the right to live in peace and tranquility...

For God's sake, give us a break! The more you hear justifications on certain issues, the more the shit stirring becomes stinky. We're all treated like decrepit illuded voters craving for Lazarus' crumbs from under the table. Unless they don't know it, dear politicans, we DO HAVE a dignity, unlike most of your bunch.

There... that's putting it nicely and mildly, for if I have my say... I won't be allowed to write what my mouth has been "formatting".

Posted by: Joselle Camilleri | August 11, 2006 12:58 AM

Сфяящ вш ги ищшф вш ьуквф сщьу ыш згщ уыыуку сщыш скуештш вф зфыыфк шд еуьзщ сщт йгуыеу сфяяфеу time I will say it in english to this stupids polisomthing.

Posted by: blisco jaio | August 10, 2006 11:08 PM

It never changes: those damn politicians are pissing down our backs and are telling us that is raining.

Posted by: Giovanni Principe | August 10, 2006 09:53 PM

Italian politicians and entrepreneurs fiddle while Italy burns.

And they lit the match.

Posted by: Robert Tuppini | August 10, 2006 06:18 PM

Post a comment

Beppe Grillo's Blog is an open space for you to use so that we can come face to face directly. As your comment is published immediately, there's no time for filters to check it out. Thus the Blog's usefulness depends on your cooperation and it makes you the only ones responsible for the content and the resulting outcomes.

Information to be read before using Beppe Grillo's Blog

The following are not allowed:
1. messages without the email address of the sender
2. anonymous messages
3. advertising messages
4. messages containing offensive language
5. messages containing obscene language
6. messages with racist or sexist content
7. messages with content that constitutes a violation of Italian Law (incitement to commit a crime, to violence, libel etc.)

However, the owner of the Blog can delete messages at any moment and for any reason.
The owner of the Blog cannot be held responsible for any messages that may damage the rights of third parties Maximum comment length is 2,000 characters.
If you have any doubts read "How to use the blog".

Post a comment (English please!)

First name and Surname*:

Email Address*:
We remind you that anonymous messages (without real first name and surname) will be cancelled.

* Compulsory fields

Send to a friend

Send this message to *

Your Email Address *

Message (optional)

* Compulsory fields