State ICT explained to the Russians

buco_informatico.jpg
(estimates – thousands of Euro)

The scurrilous story of the italia.it portal, explained in detail on the site, scandaloitaliano, is just the tip of the iceberg. If you read the chart published by l'Espresso with hundreds of millions of euro spent on technology for the public administration, you will come to the conclusion that we are a people of saints, navigators and failed ICT personnel.
Who is getting this mass of money? And justified by what results?
The Internet applications can be seen and are disgusting.
A Russian citizen who has tackled the joyous war machine of the Public Administration sent me a letter that seems to me to have been written by Franz Kafka.

Dear sig. Grillo,

I would like to tell you about the sad experience that I have had while trying to renew my “permission to stay” with the new system that started up about 9 months ago. My name is Ilia T. and I am a Russian citizen that has been living and working in Padua for 7 years as an ICT engineer.

This year I’ve had to replace my “permission to stay” that was due to run out March 2007 and I had to use the new document renewal system for citizens coming from outside the European Union. It was well publicised by the government at the end of 2006. Half way through January 2007 I presented the pack of documents that I filled in at a post office and I paid the service charge of a good 72 euro (almost 5 times as much as the old system that cost me 14.62) . In exchange for my documents and my money I received a piece of paper with the code of my file and the PIN to used to access a Web portal developed by the Italian Post: www.portaleimmigrazione.it.

I accessed that site for the first time after a couple of weeks and I had the unpleasant surprise to find that, according to the Post Office, I made a mistake in filling out the form. To clear things up I made various attempts to call the telephone number indicated on the website, however I never had success until half way through April 2007 when all of a sudden when I called the number I managed to speak to a female operator in the call centre. The lady explained to me that the Post Office had a technical mishap, that my form had no mistakes and that in 2 weeks I would have found on the website the date when I would be called to the Questura.

Half way through May without having received any date for coming to the Questura I tried calling once more and I heard that my documents were blocked in a State archive in Naples and I was advised to go to the Questura to speed up the process.

At the Padua Questura they told me that they didn’t have any information about me and they advised me to phone the call centre of the Italian Post Office once more.

While talking to people there in the Questura I gathered that I’m not the only one to be in this situation and that there’s an infinite number of people obliged to wait more than 6 months to get their documents.

To sum up, I’ve written this letter in the evening of 2 June 2007, almost 6 months after sending the documents to the Interior Ministry. To get these documents I’ve paid a sum that is a good five times what I paid 2 years ago and as well I’ve had to fork out 17 euro for 210 telephone calls to the switchboard of the Italian Post Office. Nearly all of these telephone calls were answered by a voice mail that is not free.

Up until now, I have had no date to come to the Questura and I can’t even say precisely where my documents are located: in the post office, in Naples or in the Questura at Padua."

Ilia T.

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Comments

...NO WAY!

Posted by: The Moose | July 16, 2007 01:10 PM


Amara fucking moose.

Posted by: giulius massamba | July 15, 2007 09:14 PM


Paolo Rossi from which town do you write?

Posted by: giulius massamba | July 15, 2007 09:10 PM


Paolo: I think that it is more likely that any 'foreigners' reading would be dissuaded after reading _your_ words. Ciao.

Posted by: Amara | July 15, 2007 09:10 PM


Giulius,

If you do 10 nuns, I think you become a bishop... isn´t it so?

Posted by: P. Rossi | July 15, 2007 08:52 PM


I used to have sex with nums in CONGO.

Posted by: giulius massamba | July 15, 2007 08:47 PM


Good thing Klodjana is happy about everything.
Imagine what she´s like when she´s actually pissed off about something???

hahaha

:D

Posted by: P. Rossi | July 15, 2007 08:44 PM


Well, foreigners reading this blog will probably have been dissuaded from moving to Italy, by now.

So, our exchange here did serve a good purpose after all.

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 08:38 PM


Paolo, read carefully:
I'm NOT her biographer, just a friend (hopefully)
She's NOT disappointed about Italy, but she doesn't think that some things are normal
She's NOT disappointed about Albania, she only wanted to make some experience abroad
She's NOT disappointed about the US, she only regrets she had to lose 4 years and miss the opportunity to study there.
Good night!

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 08:30 PM


My last message: this discussion was meant to speak about the things that do now work normally in Italy.
It has become a discussion about foreign people who do not get informed about how Italy works.
Furthermore, I have the feeling that we (as Italians) see ourselves and Italy as better than other people and country that we do not actually know. Our behaviour with people depends on their country of origin. I don't like it. I fear that some "Lega" attitude is catching on Italian people.
I wish you a good night to all of you.

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 08:27 PM


Donatella,

You must be her biographer! :D

Anyway, I can understand she is disappointed about not going. She was disappointed about Albania. Now she is disappointed about Italy. And I have a feeling she will also be disappointed about the US...

Then again, she will be disappointed about being disappointed... and one day she will be disappointed about having been disappointed all her life.

But I don´t think anyone can help that...

What a disappointment!

:P

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 08:26 PM


She was denied the visa when she was 18 and had been awarded a 15k scholarship to study engineering in the US. That year 90% of visa applications from Albania were rejected. You can imagine how she's been disappointed about this.
Some years have passed and she now has the chance to move there.

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 08:20 PM


Donatella,

don´t worry, I do not hold any grudges :D

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 08:17 PM


Donatella,

Klodjana said that the US rejected her because of racism against Albanians.

As I said, I think she got rejected because of other reasons, not racism.

Now you are proving that I was right, racism was not the reason she could not study in the US, since she is going to the US now.

By the way, I bet she will be posting complaints about the US soon after arrival...

:D

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 08:13 PM


Giulius, didn't I tell you that I'm a nun?
You should try somewhere else :)

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 08:12 PM


Well, she didn't show her best face here but, assuming that you are both clever persons, we could cut the discussion and make a second start :-)

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 08:10 PM


I prefer have SEX.
Are u up for a threesome?

Posted by: giulius massamba | July 15, 2007 08:09 PM


Donatella,

I am not surprised at all to read that the visa process can be much longer than it should. From my experience in Italy, nothing ever worked the way it should...

As for Klodjana, unlike you, I will just say that I do not know her. She may well be a great engineer and a fun person to hang out with--that is, something very different from the impression I got from the conversation here. The blog is a great means of communication and... misunderstanding!

:P

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 08:07 PM


I'm not her lawyer, she doesn't need.
Peace-keeping activities are a good activity, don't you agree?

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 08:04 PM


Donatella r u K's Lawyer??
And.. Nothing better to do this evening?
I can invite u for dinner..

Posted by: giulius massamba | July 15, 2007 08:01 PM


I didn't read last messages since I was writing.
They prove more misunderstandings. Klodjana will move to the US together with her husband.
So, before jumping to the conclusion that Klodjana hates Italy or USA or any other country in the world, you should know her.
:-)

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 08:00 PM


Well, I think Paolo and Klo will never be friends :)
Messages are causing much misunderstanding and anger, or so it seems to me and this does not help in communicating.
In any case, I know Klo's history and believe me Paolo, she got informed about the procedures for the visa. Strangely enough, nobody had told her that for Albanians the time to get the visa was eternity. I work with Turkish people, we usually invite them for business, they can get the visa in one week. This is the standard procedure for Embassies and Consulates of Italy everywhere in the world. I don't know why for Albania it is different.
I know that the discussion has been very unpleasant due to the many misunderstandings which caused an aggressive attitude and lack of listening. I believe that, although the words used on both sides, nobody was meaning to offend the other party. Am I wrong?
Therefore, for sake of a sound exchange of opinion, it should be better to leave sarcasm aside.
Paolo, believe me, Klodjana is a good engineer and a talented person, a little bit too passionate in some cases. She felt attacked by some rough messages since she posted her experiences. She felt judged by you and not very positively and she reacted. Since we don't know each other, I think there's no reason to make remarks on the person. We were trying to judge how things work in Italy.

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 07:57 PM


I suggest Iraq.

;)

Posted by: P. Rossi | July 15, 2007 07:51 PM


K do u already know which is your next Country?
Did u buy tickets?
If not I suggest you Bulgaria.

Posted by: giulius massamba | July 15, 2007 07:49 PM


Well, when you look for a job, your prospective employer might not be very impressed with your messages full of insults.

Your accusations of racism and discrimination against the United States might, as well, come back to haunt you.

You see: I told you you are naive. And you keep proving me right.

(You should say thank you for this advice too, instead of posting more insults.)

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 07:49 PM


I didn't say anybody cares to know. I said I got nothing to hide... if my name is Klodjana I present myself as Klodjana, why should I invent an alias?

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 07:44 PM


Klodjana:

Your attitude and the way you argue (recurring to insults on a regular basis) does little to diminish the discrimination you claim against Albanians. In the US and elsewhere.

To add my impression, I do not think the US lost out on much and I have a feeling you were not rejected on the basis of racism.

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 07:44 PM


Klodjana:

Didn´t you just say that you don´t insult anybody?
:D

Anyway, I don´t think anybody cares to know your name, address or url. I certainly don´t.

:D

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 07:41 PM


Because of racism against albanians I was denied the visa to study in the US and lost my 15k USD scolarship!

Does it answer your perplessity of me coming to study engineering in italy?

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 07:40 PM


Donatella,

Ok, it is easy to misinterpret messages and even easier to write something which can be misinterpreted.

Italy´s problems are so obvious and well-publicized (newspapers, tv, radio, internet...) that a minimum of research would have been enough. From what Klodjana wrote, I understand that she was "just 19" and did not know anything. Committing so much time and money without taking the time to do research is, in my opinion, a serious mistake. Pointing it out is not an attack, but a suggestion which is useful for avoiding repeating the same mistake again. She prefers to take offence... and, presumably, make the same mistake again!

Well, good luck.

Also, choosing Italy to study Engineering is, in my opinion, rather outlandish. A bit of research would have probably suggested otherwise. She takes offence.

Fine... and good luck again.

I did my good deed for the day.
:D

On the rest, I agree: Italy is not normal. You´re optimistic it can get normal. I´m pessimistic and think it will get intolerably worse. Of course, I hope you are right... but I would not bet a penny on it.

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 07:37 PM


I didn't think for a second that was your real name. that's why you are being such an ass.
But, i've nothing to hide so I enter my real name and my blog's url. Unlike all you others.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 07:32 PM


What do you need to know the name for?

Then again, if you read Paolo Rossi, you assume it is really my name, eh?

hahaha

Funny! You are Klodjana in Wonderland.

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 07:29 PM


Paolo, I don't mean to be anyone's lawyer :-)
I think there has been a misunderstanding since the start of the discussion. Some words or sentences which have been misinterpreted.
Klodjana was giving her experience. You say that she should have collected information, but she actually did. But when you ask for information nobody will tell you that things are not working as they should.
I don't like the attitude of considering everything as normal. Some things still surprise me negatively. Am I naive? Maybe, but I still consider Italy as a developed country and therefore some things are not acceptable to me. Am I wrong? I don't think that one should be happy unconditionally only because it's Italy and things are made the Italian way and everybody knows. It is not normal :-)

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 07:28 PM


Giulius, I did not insult anybody... but your surname was missing, so for me it was a nickname. That's all. In fact I said nothing more when you entered you surname and presented yourself.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 07:24 PM


Donatella,

I do not attack Klodjana for criticizing Italy.

The problems are not hidden and have been there for decades. Being surprised about it is just naive.

I offered some advice as to how to end up happier after the next move... and everyone got upset! Fine.

Once living in another country, Giulius´ attitude is the most likely to bring about happiness. Of course, having selected a good country, instead of one going down the drain also helps. That was meant to be my contribution.

I got insults in exchange :)

Oh well!

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 07:19 PM


FAREWELL, Klodjana Dervishi.


p.s. Giulius is not a nickname. It's my name.
You should be ashamed for insulting my mum's
will.

Posted by: giulius massamba | July 15, 2007 07:19 PM


I'm happy to be with my husband and I'm still here because of him and some friends I can't deny to have found in this country, but this doesn't change the decision me and my husband made last year ago... move elsewhere.

I'll be missing italian food though... and of course my friends.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 07:15 PM


Only because I admit that most things are to be changed in Italy, it doesn't mean that I'm not happy here.
I decided to remain in Italy, after all.
And I bet that also Klodjana is quite happy to be here :-)

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 07:11 PM


Giulius, I'm happy for the opportunity that Italy gave to you. I understand your gratitude.
But believe me: Klodjana was neither attacking Italy or our culture.
She was only giving an example of what was her experience with the Italian bureaucracy in a delicate moment of her life.
I think there was a misunderstanding about the whole discussion.

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 07:09 PM


Giulius,

Maybe you could tell us all how you manage to be happy in Italy...

Most here don´t seem to be happy campers there.

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 07:06 PM


my name is giulius massamba.
I come from Democratic Republic of the Congo.
Itay gave me the opportunity to study at
the university and to find a job.
K I'm so sorry about your frustration..

Posted by: giulius massamba | July 15, 2007 07:06 PM


Paolo, I understand your point now. But in your previous posts, it looked like you were attacking Klodjana because she dared complain about some things.
As you see, there are people who believe that if you criticize this means that you don't love this country. I think it is the opposite: we DO love Italy and we cannot stand to see things going worse.
If we all surrender, there's no chance to improve.

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 07:04 PM


Donatella,

I agree with your point that things are bad in Italy. So bad, in fact, that I see no chance of improvement. Over the next few years, the situation is actually likely to get much worse, since Italy´s situation is similar to that of Argentina´s before the collapse.

But nothing really is new. It is the same problems that have been dragging on for decades and the consequences are coming.

The problem is too big to be solved now.

So, my point is: recognize the situation and if you are happy to live with it, fine. If you are not, you´d better go somewhere else.

I am just being realistic and I think there are many other places where someone who wants to be honest and work and have a normal life can be happy. Italy just doesn´t happen to be one of them.

That´s just the way it is. No surprises there. That´s why I see little point in whining.

I didn´t like it there. I can´t change it and I left. It worked for me and I am suggesting it may work for someone else.

It´s an advice, not an insult. I have no problem with foreigners going to Italy.

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 07:01 PM


and some of our laws ARE really ridiculous!

I'm Italian and I love Italy, but I don't accept that Italy cannot be a normal country!

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 07:01 PM


I'm not interested in the color of your skin.
And while you are able to write my name and surname... you keep hiding behind a nickname. You must be very "brave" ;)

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 06:59 PM


Giulius, if K explains that there are some things that do not work in Italy, it doesn't mean that she doesn't like Italy or Italian culture.
She chose to live in Italy, she even married an Italian man. She's only saying that some things do not work and this cannot be denied. Can't she complain about it? Is this necessarily a sign that she doesn't love Italy? She never said such a stupid thing.
If you really love Italy, you have the duty to identify and complain about the things that do not work. You cannot close your eyes and accept everything blindly. This is not the way to improve!

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 06:59 PM


stop popping bullshit, Donatella Esposito and
Klodjana Dervishi.
K does not appreciate our culture, thinks
that our laws are ridicoluos..she doesn't
deserve to live in this wonderful country.
I'm a black man, by the way and I love
Italy.

Posted by: giulius | July 15, 2007 06:55 PM


I just read Amara´s comment. It is funny to read the complaints of foreigners who do not like Italy.

Really, if you don´t like it--why are you even there???

Go somewhere else!

(I did.)

Posted by: P. Rossi | July 15, 2007 06:53 PM


Paolo, the Italian situation is very serious but this doesn't mean that we have to accept it as it is. We need to keep our indignation and ACT to change things.
It is not enough to complain, it is necessary to MOVE. We cannot say "ok, you should have known". We MUST say "really, ok let's try and change things".
The problem of Italy is that we get used that things do not work. We accept it. And when we meet people who do not, we tell them "why do you complain? this is the Italian way"
Other countries make things work, are we so much more stupid than them? I'm starting to believe that we do are.

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 06:46 PM


giulius (by the way, why do you hide behind a fake alias? isn't it written that you have to indicate your real name and surname?): why do you care where I wait for the new era? aren't you able to write anything more senseful?

And if you knew anything about "Enver Hoxha time" should have know that things worked well. everybody had a job, everybody had food and lived well. I would be dishonest not to mention that we were reclused and didn't know anything about the rest of the world (reason why people seeked a change)... but we did something to change the situation. Reclusion was not ok, so we protested.

You are not. You are only attacking me because I said bad things about your country. Face reality. I face the reality about my country. I'm not describing it as a paradise and I'm not even telling anybody to accept the actual issues in Albania. On the contrary, I tend to point out what malfunctions are and hope they will be fixed someday.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 06:43 PM


Donatella: I never said "go back to your underdeveloped country". I never even suggested to go back to Albania.

My point of view is that there´s nothing new happening in Italy and it makes no sense to be surprised or even to complain.

The country is beyond the point where things can be fixed. From here things will only get worse.

From the comments here, I gather two things:

- That many people do not understand how serious Italy´s situation is.

- That a logical debate is foreign to most. (This is probably at the root of Italy´s problems.)

Said that, I wish you all good luck wherever you are or will be, and in whatever you do... or will do.

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 06:41 PM


Giulius, why are you so against foreign people? It looks like a little bit racism in your words, but I'm sure I'm wrong about it.
We are moving to a multi-racial era and this can only be good to all of us. Why are we supposed to reject foreign people moving to our country? I wouldn't like that Italian people have the same treatment abroad. We move abroad and foreign people come to Italy. It's an exchange.

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 06:39 PM


A complaint and out of place thing that I could have said is: damn, I hate this country because I'm married to an italian but I have to wait 4 years to get the citizenship.
But I AM NOT. This is what italian law says, and I ACCEPT that. A part from the fact that I don't care about italian citizenship, but even if I cared, it is not a thing I can complaint about. It's been made pretty clear to me and I'm ok with that.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 06:35 PM


Could u wait for the New Era
in Tirana, please?

Posted by: gulius | July 15, 2007 06:32 PM


I think that Italians rarely know what immigrants (extracommunitari or communitari) must do for bureaucracy to live and work in their country, unless they are living with, or otherwise close to, someone going through the experience. This is probably normal, i.e. why would the locals know the details for what foreigners must do to live and work in their country? However, because I've been a foreigner working and living for substantial periods of time in my life, I do ask many detailed questions of the foreigners who live and work in the country where I was born. It is usually an eye-opener to me, just like it is (every time) an eye-opener to the Italians I tell who learn what immigrants must do to live and work in their country. Sometimes (more than occasionally) the Italians I tell, don't believe me. These are well-traveled and educated people. "It couldn't possibly be that bad," they tell me. Hmm.

(Small pieces of a larger story, before I gave up.)
http://www.amara.com/ftpstuff/lescienze.txt

Posted by: Amara | July 15, 2007 06:25 PM


Unlike this country, Albania is willing to change and has gone a long way ahead.

And, his name was Enver Hoxha.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 06:21 PM


ah.. great time when Ever Hoxa
was around..

Posted by: giulius | July 15, 2007 06:14 PM


I thought this blog, and especially the post of Mr. Ilia was about "let's do something to change, because it is unfair". I didn't know it was about "you stupid assholes that came to italy should have known it is shit and you shouldn't complaint".

But I guess you guys like this coutry like it is. So you keep your deep deep shit and swim in it for as long as you like. And you're about to drawn you can still accuse foreigners about making bad decisions to come to Italy.

I've written somewhere that my actual residence is "LA TERRA DEI CACHI". And it is in fact, because people make it like this.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 06:14 PM


I'm so upset to read such a discussion on this kind of blog which is generally considered to be "on people's side". I'm afraid to notice that the same people who want to make revolution to change those things that hurt them personally are so regardless about other people's problem.
You are shocked about pollution, corruption, waste of public money but when a foreign person tries to show how things do not work because of stupid bureaucracy, the only thing you can say is "if you don't like it go back to your under developed country". It's not fair like that. It's a shame that people (whether Italian or foreigner) have to beg to have their rights acknowledged. You cannot be filled with indignation only when it suits you and f**k the rest. You cannot offend other countries to defend your own. Many things in Italy do not work the right way, we cannot accept it. There is need to change. And you cannot change things by saying "you should have known and if you don't like it move on"! If things do not work, let's protest! For ours as well as for other people's interests.

Posted by: Donatella Esposito | July 15, 2007 06:08 PM


By the way, Klodjana, you judged your own decision as "poor", since you regret it and admitted you did not know anything about Italy.

I find your way of arguing a bit illogical. This must be a sensitive issue for you.

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 05:49 PM


I just predict the future.

It´s an opportunity for you to fix the problem. Instead, you get upset by the obvious.

Think it over. Or you´ll make my prediction come true.

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 05:46 PM


I actually do not see how one can miss the fact that Italy is in a tragic situation. You complain about the treatment of foreigners. It is the same for Italians. So you convinced me: I really must have superpowers! since it has been pretty clear to me for a long time. (And you ain´t seen nothing yet!)

Anyway, I was not attacking you. In fact, I was giving you some valuable advice:

- Do research before you make decisions. That doesn´t mean knowing everything, but at least you should be aware of the main issues...

- It makes no sense to complain. What do you expect? That things will change for you?? Do research and go to a place you like overall. Accept the rest. Or just move on. Complaining will not solve any problems and will not win you any sympathy.

How much more "human" can one be than taking the time to give some good advice to a stranger?

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 05:43 PM


Let me say that you are full of bullshit. You are nobody to judge my decisions and how I make them.
Do you think you're better than me? I don't think so.

You are just an obtuse persone that knows only prejudice.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 05:30 PM


You keep telling me I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN. How could I ever know these stuff without having to deal with it?

My husband was born and grew up in Italy, spending here 35 years of his life and yet he didn't know. He was sure my parents were gonna come to the wedding. HE WAS PRETTY SURE. But the embassy proved him wrong. If an italian couldn't figure it out, how could I?

How was I supposed to know? So please, stop telling me I should have known.
My husband didn't know what non EU citizens go through until he met me. Should he have known too?
Stop attacking and start being more human!

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 05:27 PM


(It doesn´t take superpowers to predict you will be disappointed again--and not just about the place where you live.)

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 05:25 PM


Klodjana:

You only find excuses for the poor way you make decisions.

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 05:21 PM


Yu can't know a place (the backstage of it!!!) if you don't live in it. I don't have superpowers. If you do, I envy you! Truly.

I did not agree with you at any point, my point is Italy sucks, as far as burocratics is concerned. What I wrote from the begining was not a complaint anyways, but a constatation. And I'm not suprised at this point, I finished being suprised in october 2006.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 05:16 PM


"So, it's not that it works in a certain way and I don't accept. It just doesn't work as the papers say. Can you get my point?"

***

I HOPE YOU HAVE FIGURED OUT BY NOW THAT THAT´S HOW THINGS NORMALLY "WORK" IN ITALY.

This is one detail you should have known already before coming. Instead, you still are surprised by that...


Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 04:52 PM


Marco:

If someone spends a lot of money to go to a country they have never been to and of which they know nothing about, my inference is that either they are crazy or they do not much like the place where they are.

So, there is my inference explained. And it was confirmed by Klodjana. So, you must not have followed the discussion very carefully.

I skimmed through the rest of your comment... which includes a "shame on you". Again, your comment fails to consider the fact that Klodjana herself said that she now thinks she shouldn´t have gone to Italy...

So, she agrees with what I said. Not a good idea to go to Italy.

I suppose you think that I mean I do not want foreigners in Italy. Well, if that´s the case, your assumption is wrong.

I just think it makes no sense for normal, well meaning people to seek a future in Italy. I said Italy sucks and it makes no sense to go there and complain about it. If you don´t like it, don´t go.

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 04:45 PM


I don't give a fuck about albanians
to be honest.. Italians are famous
in the world for so many reasons (good and bad).
Albanians?

Posted by: giulius | July 15, 2007 04:44 PM


I don'g give a fuck about albanians
to be honest.. Italians are famous
in the world for so many reasons (good and bad).
Albanians?

Posted by: giulius | July 15, 2007 04:44 PM


You may be missing something. According to the law, a permission to stay for students (this is what concerned me in the past 5 years) should be given in less than 3 months. I never waited less than 3 months for a renewal. It always was 5-6 months at least.
So, it's not that it is said: you will have to wait 5-6 months. I would have accepted that. Because if it is how it works and I came here I should have known. It says otherwise. What law says as never been respected as far as ma issues are concerned.

So, it's not that it works in a certain way and I don't accept. It just doesn't work as the papers say. Can you get my point?

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 04:39 PM


You are really strange people...
Looks like you really like to write here whatever thing you have in your mind without even try to understand what people says.
Paolo: Have you been to Albania once in your life? How can you say what you said without it? Do you know how things works there, what people do? Or you are basing your answer only by the fact that your cousin told you long time ago that all Albanians steal car wheels all the times? I went there, and never, never i felt like a stranger, not for a minute. A lot of strangers coming to Italy instead, probably all of them, they feel like persons with plague, and doesn't matter if they are coming from Albania, Switzerland or Canada. As a stranger, you are considered like shit without even look at what your passport says.
Do you guys tried once to stay in line at the local questura at the strangers office? I did, without saying anything, telling nobody i was Italian. They treated me like shit as well. Police yells at everybody in line with very evident disregard for them. "You are shit and don't try to say a word" is what they have in mind, nothing else. And probably the same are thinking the big majority of Italians, with the big I, very proud to be, like someone i've read here. I'm not proud to be italian when i see something like that, or when i read what Klo and Ilia said, and the comments from italian people are "you shouldn´t have gone there". Shame on you. And you are writing this on a blog devoted to seek justice and to stop discrimination. So italian...
This is one more example of why Italy is so trashed. We don even try to understand, we just say stuff, any stuff, doesn't matter right or wrong. But we still are the ones with a reason. So full of prejudice. The only thing i hope to you is to have a son or a daughter living in some other country, marry someone there and find yourself not able to attend the marriage because you are Italian, and so automatically mafioso, and consequently with all visas denied.

Posted by: Marco Sacchi | July 15, 2007 04:34 PM


I won´t respond to your inconclusive arguments.

The point is this: if you decide to go to a place where things work in a way you don´t like, the fault is yours.

And your complaints will not change anything. So, your complaining does not make any sense.

From what I wrote, you could draw one useful conclusion: do your homework before committing your time and money. Or you´ll end up being just as unhappy in the next place where you go.

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 04:30 PM


I've seen no prostitutes at all in Tirana.
But I've seen albania/italian/russian/other prostitutes in Italy. It's a choice and all these girls (italian or not) have decided to be like this because they find clients in Italy. Do you wonder why?

But I do have a lot of italian contacts in Albania, businessmen and other... that live and work in Tirana. I will ask them why go this downgrade way and move to Albania to work, as Italy is still better.

A part from what non-open-minded people may think, albanians are not a bunch of prostitutes and criminals. The non-open-minded judge just like you did, without knowing anything.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 04:29 PM


What do u think of the many albanian
prostitutes in Italy?
Becuse I've never been there can u tell me How many italian prostitutes have u seen in Tirana?
I'm so curious...

Posted by: giuliu | July 15, 2007 04:22 PM


We all know what Iraq is like, at least we think so... from what we see on TV. Well, on TV they never say in Italy burocratic issues as so ill.
I was 19, I thought what you think now: Italy is better than where I come from.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 04:18 PM


Your sarcasm is out of place.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 04:15 PM


You say my complaints do not make any sense just beacause according to you I came in a better country than the one I came from.

I'm paying taxes just like anybody else here. I'm not living for free. So, why do I have to accept this treatment? Just because according to you Italy is still better than Albania? Do I still have to be satisfied? Does this gentleman, Ilia, have to be satisfied of the situation he is in just because he comes from Russia?
Isn't it still unfair?

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 04:14 PM


You make your parents spend a whole lot of money to send you to Italy without even knowing what Italy is like??

Where are you moving to next? ...Iraq?

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 04:13 PM


If I knew Italy before I wouldn't have come. Has it ever occured to you that people may have regrets? I regret coming here and in fact I'll be leaving. I just had to finish my studies because my parents spent a lot of money in documents and I just couldn't trash all that.

and, since you've never been to Albania you can't tell if it is better or worse.

I repeat, IF I KNEW, I wouldn't have come.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 03:58 PM


Klodjana:

If you get hurt by the way things work, or do not work, in Italy--then you shouldn´t have gone there.

If you went there, it is likely that, however bad, Italy is still better than Albania, where you come from.

So, your complaints do not make any sense.

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 03:53 PM


Per chi vorrebbe sapere la storia di Berlusconi vi consiglio di vedere questo link su your tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXJin-dYraY&mode=related&search=

Che sfigati che siamo noi italiani, siamo alla berlina in Europa, sfruttati da quattro disgraziati lobbisti o P2isti nessun politico che abbia un po' di rigore ed etica e tutti gli italiani che non capiscono chi seguire confusi dalle kazzate dei media sotto il potere della politica. Penso anche agli italiani che si sentono traditi ad esempio i funzionari pubblici quando gli chiedono di mettere nel contratto obiettivi che gli verranno pagati per aumentare l'efficienza della pubblica amministrazione. Ma riuscite a capire almeno voi che questo renderebbe la vostra vita migliore per andare a fare tutti i documenti nelle strutture dello stato o prendere un treno o un aereo ?
Non ci arrivate ? E' come pagare una tassa per non stare in coda o non trovare il funzionario allo sportello ed incazzarsi a morte!

Rigore ed etica questa sarebbe la strada per creare una nuova italia piu' giusta e uguale per tutti.

Ci vorrebbe una prima linea di intellettuali come Pasolini per mettere alla berlina i politici e purtroppo a parte beppe grillo non si vede nessuno.

Un saluto a tutti sia che tu sia di destra che di sinistra. Non vi e' mai passato per la testa che la destra o la sinistra sono come le fedi ? Cristiana, Islamica, Ebrea, ecc.. Una forma di contenere le aspirazioni degli uomini per dominarli meglio...

Ciao

Posted by: Vincenzo Mazzotta | July 15, 2007 03:23 PM


I figured what I had to. I figured that my parents were unable to attend the wedding, that they had an interview on the 17th and got their visa 1 month later (1 month or 1 day doesn't make a difference when you have strict deadlines). I figured frustration for months. Got hurt by all this.

NOBODY GOT HURT FOR I MISTYPED A NUMBER.
Don't be so shallow people.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 03:14 PM


Klodjana you make a big deal between the 13th and the 17th of the same month. Then you argue that one year more or less does not make any difference. Go figure!

Posted by: David Cohen | July 15, 2007 01:19 PM


Klodjana:

After reading your post... I´m now considering moving to Albania.

Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 12:09 PM


Albania is more civilized than Italy?
Can we have more details, please?
I'm very interested.

Posted by: giulius | July 15, 2007 08:03 AM


@Paolo: ok, I wrote 2006 instead of 2007, it's not such a big deal!

Sometimes I think Albania is much more civilized than Italy, but you guys are too full of distorted visions to think otherwise. Anyway, we're not moving in Albania.

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 15, 2007 04:06 AM


Amara:

We all knew you were astro...

Posted by: San Francesco | July 15, 2007 01:35 AM


Klodjana:

"we'll be moving out of Italy by the end of 2006."
*** FYI, WE´RE ALREADY IN 2007.


"I can't wait to live in a civilized country."
*** I DON´T SUPPOSE YOU GUYS ARE MOVING BACK TO ALBANIA THEN...


Posted by: Paolo Rossi | July 15, 2007 01:29 AM


Only six months waiting for the permesso? I waited three years while the Questura lost my original papers and wouldn't admit that they lost them, so my local town polizia office said that they were blocked and couldn't do anything to help me get my permesso; not even to begin the whole procedure from scratch. Meanwhile I discovered that my workplace office people were following the wrong procedure because there apparently exists another track for permessos for professionals (I'm an astrophysicist), but they didn't know (well, who ever heard of a scientist moving _into_ Italy?), while I spent weeks of my life at the Questura trying unsuccessfully to solve the problem. Only in Italy can a person be an Italian government scientist and an illegal immigrant at the same time.

(It's OK, I will be a drained brain, soon.)

Posted by: Amara Graps | July 14, 2007 10:50 PM


Welcome to Italy!!! Things work really great here.
I'm an albanian citizen who came to Italy (Rome) to study computer engineering about 5 years ago. Last year my fiancee asked me to marry him and we decided to tie the knot on october 13th 2006. All set, except for the fact that my parents live in Albania and they needed a visa to come attend the ceremony of their firt child getting married. I don't wanna go through many details but in the end, after months of frustration and all the money spent with phone calls my parents couldn't get a visa interview from the italian embassy in Albania, except fot october 17th. I said the marriage was due to OCTOBER 13TH! I got married without my parents beside me.

When we told sb from the embassy that it was unfair to me to get married and not have my parents present, I was told that I could go and get married in Albania. I was also told that my parents should have called first. What the hack? Did I have to plan my marriage according to the italian embassy or what? My parents started calling (THE VERY EXPENSIVE PHONE NUMBER) as soon as I gave them the good news. The only thing my parents saw of that day was a live streaming of the webcam during my preparation... and the photo album.

Fortunately, me and my husband are planning a future elsewhere, we'll be moving out of Italy by the end of 2006. I can't wait to live in a civilized country.

Good luck with your application!

ps. By the way, I could tell you a lot of stories of what I've been through during the time I had a permission of stay as a student. Like the fact that I have been a "prisoner" in Italy for a long 13 months waiting for the renewal... to then find out that some application papers were lost (I always make double copies, so I was sure I handed them all the necessary papers, but they accused me anyways). I was utterly insulted and I ran away from the Questura crying. Ok, I think I've written enough for today. Maybe next time I'll tell some more stories, old or even new ones (I'm married with an italian but I'm still a non EU citizen).

Best regards, Klo

Posted by: Klodjana Dervishi | July 14, 2007 09:51 PM


I can´t figure out why someone would want to live and work in Italy... Italians included. But foreirgners moving to Italy?

Baffles me!

Posted by: Daniele Sala | July 14, 2007 07:39 PM


Hi Beppe,
could put the V-day Flyer in English . I can do the transaltion if you wish and post to mi collegues.
Thank you

Posted by: Vito Breda | July 14, 2007 05:34 PM


Why did you translate "informatica" in ICT and not IT?????

Posted by: simone leonardi | July 14, 2007 02:21 PM


Consider yourself lucky. I am an EU citizen and have over eighteen years ICT experience, much it in senior and managerial roles and found it next to impossible to find work in Italy. Even for those jobs that required 'perfect English', foreigners appear to be actively discriminated against.

Anyway, Why Padua? Aren't there lots of ICT opportunities in Moscow and St Petersburg?

Posted by: Tom Sullivan | July 14, 2007 12:29 PM


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